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ElamenSTAR(discussion)

Page history last edited by AveMaria 13 years, 9 months ago

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This is out of character. You can stop pretending now.

 

I feel this page is undermining a lot of the work done by people in the Wiki. It relegates James Langomedes, who's supposed to be the animation version of Alan Moore into somone who just made a few clumsy edits and slapped on some bad dubbing. It definatley jars with Gabe's wizbits designs, and overall, I just don't think the concept is that funny. I don't mind it actually existing, but the wizbits shouldn't be derived from it, and it certainly shouldn't be considered canon. -Luggage

 

There's a bunch of stuff here that couldn't exist without the wizbits being based on ElamenSTAR, so to change that now would sort of make that stuff difficult to save. I think that this series is not exactly canon, but rather much more canon than the wizbits. As for Gabe's wizbits designs, I'm not sure that this series would need to conflict in any way. Perhaps James Langomedes could be retrofit to be the mastermind behind both the Japanese and American versions of the show. It could be that ElamenSTAR was even a proving ground where he earned his production and authoring experience before bring his "true vision" to the united states (much to the chagrine of Kilnoboys everywhere who preferred the japanese original). -Tim
edit: on further thinking about this... the same jokes could be made if there were an original DVD release of the series (perhaps intended more for adults) and then a "cartoon network" version. Several of the entries would only need minor edits to make this happen.

 

I agree that at this point it would be impractical to ditch ElamenSTAR; it's too well-integrated into The Wizbits canon. Personally, I see James Langomedes' role as perfectly fitting; a mad genius who took an already created product and remade it in his own image. Just because it's "based" on ElemenSTAR doesn't make it less valuable; the two are so different that The Wizbits qualifies as an almost completely seperate series. I think the real problem is that it's The Wizbits that's supposed to be that crazy, off-the-wall, massively warped show, but ElemenSTAR is turning out to be even creepier than Langomedes version. I think that from this point further an effort should be made to make episodes of ElemenSTAR significantly different from their 'The Wizbits' counterparts, while at the same time making it clear that the Wizbits comes on top in regards to insanity. ~ Charmy

 

I honestly don't see anything wrong with ElamenSTAR. I mean, it's been around for quite a while, and it's integrated about as deeply as anything in this series is. And I've never seen anything wrong with The Wizbits being based on ElemenSTAR. The differences between the series are immediate and deep enough that both are their own entity. Mr. Langomedes is still an artist--just one that uses ElemenSTAR, rather than a blank sheet and paints, as his canvas and medium. ~patkelly

 

Right, and this wouldn't be the first example (though we can certainly make it out to be, and in fact, I might just do that), because many of the older anime series that got brought to America were changed heavily from their original versions, like Robotrek being made from three or four different series (mostly Macross), or like Samurai Pizza Cats or Ghost Stories just throwing out the Japanese script and writing their own. Many people feel that the American versions of both shows are superior, and while I don't know this for a fact, probably quite a few of them consider the directors geniuses of mythical status.
That said, I like the idea of retconning Langomedes as the originator of the Japanese thing. That's already been hinted at in here, but I wouldn't mind if some sort of "new evidence" resurfaced that showed conclusively that the Japanese originally got the ideas for the progression of the stories or the character dynamics from Langomedes. It would have to be a preliminary Langomedes idea, though, to account for the big differences between the Japanese version and the American version. ~Shadowtext
Now, see, that's a good idea. It's not a necessary idea, but it's a good idea. Now, is ElamenSTAR still disputed? Should we take down the Disputed tag, or is there still more discussion to be had here? ~patkelly.

 

While I don't see anything wrong wth ElamenSTAR, the easiest way to retcon it would probably be passing mention of a legal battle over Langomedes' "uncredited influence." That said, I really enjoy it the way it is now, even if I may be in the minority. Small question though... is ElamenSTAR canon? Some articles disagree I think.

 

We've got a "Discuss" link on every page, now... care to move this discussion there? ~Kenneth Pike
Either way, based on the suggestions above I think this would be the best way to do it: James Langomedes created the original but was uncredited due to some weird internal "Japanese writers only" policy (maybe they gave him a Japanese name?). He then signed on to the American version hoping to get credit for his work, but was forced by producers to dumb-down, censor, and otherwise butcher his own masterpiece because of the lower aged target audience (this could contribute to his eventual breakdown). This would help with the "ElamenSTAR is Canon, Wizbits (America) is not" discussion as well. Shall we make the appropriate corrections or has someone got a better idea? ~Kenneth Pike
My worry is that moving it there will violate the strict in-character rules... this way we can completely dispose of all out of character references... since I can't see a way to do that using the actual discuss function, I vote for staying here.

 

The "ElamenSTAR is Canon; Wizbits is not" discussion, since it arises entirely out of the fan sensibility, can continue to rage no matter what the facts are. I've always assumed that some people consider only the Tycho Brahe Cycle to be canon, while other people consider every single thing ever published (including fan fiction) to be canon. This is entirely consistent with the way actual fans work; since the creators usually don't care, the fans proceed to argue over whether, say, the Star Trek Animated Cartoon or the New Jedi Order stuff "really happened". Even if James Langomedes created both the Japanese and US cartoons, it can safely be assumed that some fans would find a reason for one or the other to be "official" while the other would be "fake". Really, any continuity that has multiple media involved goes through this exact process, which is what I enjoy about the ElamenSTAR-vs.-Wizbits discussion in the first place. It's not that "this is canon and that isn't" but that the fans themselves have haphazardly and inconsistently decided for themselves what counts. -Montykins

 

That sounds good, but then what about the explicit references in the actual articles? ~Jake

 

Actually Montykins, there's "fan continuity" and then there's "license continuity." Fan continuity is far more open to contradiction. While there is contradiction present in licensed stuff, it's much more frowned upon (by fans and writers alike). The point in discussing ElamenSTAR and canonical and Wizbits America as non-canonical is that the American cartoon outright contradicts the books while the Japanese cartoon merely plays fast-and-loose with stuff that can be easily covered by timesorc'ley or whatever. ~Kenneth Pike

 

Hmm. To me, the ElamenSTAR vs The Wizbits issue is one of the highlights of the whole Wiki. Langomedes is a total nutcase, The Wizbits is silly/creepy/weird and ElamenSTAR is sillier/creepier/weirder in the Japanese way (because, frankly, that's how some Japanese cartoons are) - and the fans are dead serious about all of it, some of them holding a Candlelight Vigil for Langomedes after he lands in a coma... This whole situation IS funny, in my opinion. Also, to me, absurdity itself is often hilarious, sometimes the greatest fun of all, when presented in a clever way. -Belda

 

The way I see it, the question of ELotH:TES continuity is very similar to the question of Star Wars continuity. Some people believe that nothing is canon unless it's in the movies; other people believe that all of the Expanded Universe is canon, except where it explicitly violates something in the movies (which then involves a great deal of fanwanking about how Chewbacca could be on two planets at once). There are some people who believe that Lucas has explicitly said that the only things that are "really" canon are: the six movies, and the Christmas Special. This is obviously silly, but that doesn't stop people from believing it. In fact, the people at Lucasfilm have a vast database of all the various nonsensical things that have been added to their universe through books, comic books, games, and packaging text on the back of action figures, and they do their best to keep it all coherent. But they don't issue statements disclaiming this or that part of the story; they leave that up to the hardcore fans. I see ELoTH:TES working the same way. Depending on which company currently owns the rights, there might be more than one "official canon". And since, in-character, this wiki was created by fans, it makes perfect sense for one section to say "this is considered canon and that isn't" but another section to say the exact opposite. This is exactly the sort of thing that starts endless flamewars on message boards in real fandoms, so it makes sense that that argument would be reflected here. Some people will believe that the US cartoon unequivocally contradicts the books (which it obviously does), but some, more determined people, will figure out incredibly complicated justifications for everything. That level of fannishness is something I greatly enjoy, where you have people outright contradicting the creators of the material and saying, for example, "That season of Buffy was out of character so it didn't happen" or "Star Trek: Enterprise obviously took place in an alternate universe" and really meaning it. -Montykins

 

Heh, well, I'm perfectly willing to leave things the way they are--certainly less work, and I personally don't think the current setup takes away from Langomedes at all. But some people are not content so I thought it might be worth talking about options. d^_^b Geeze, I don't know... shall we take a vote or what? ~Kenneth Pike

 

Montykins, I don't mind if people say that it's canon, it just baffles me why a western company would say that an eastern animation is canon. If someone made a LotR anime, is Christopher Tolkien going to say it's canon? Oh yeah, and Lucasfilm actually has a system in place lets people know which things are canon and which are not. -Luggage

 

Oh, I figure the western company was paid off or something. I think if some language is put in saying "Officially considered canon according to press releases, although many fans wonder why the Japanese animators were given the authority to create official material in the first place" that should generally smooth over the rough edges. Incidentally, I always thought part of the joke behind James Langomedes was that we act like he's an incredible creative genius when his primary contribution was recutting somebody else's show. Of course, the actual Alan Moore rose to prominence working on Swamp Thing (and being authentically brilliant at it), which was somebody else's creation, so there's kind of a parallel there too. -Montykins

 

I certainly don't think that we should remove the relation between the wizbits and ElamenSTAR, and I think we've shown that we don't have to change the text that says its canon since this is a fan run wiki and it's perfectly ok to include a section elsewhere that says that it's not really canon but we'll let those other guys think that it is. (Perhaps this could be another in character debate page like the heart debate). As for Langomedes' role, feel free to alter this if you are upset by it to more him to whatever role you feel he should play.. as long as you do it through discussion and consensus within the page I'm sure that everybody will buy into it. -Tim

 

 

I like the idea of two different canons, so I'm going to go ahead and play the lamb by posting that MGC has it as canon, while Realms doesn't, even though they technically should be the same except in this world. May flavorful wackiness ensue! Should I do the same with Lang's involvement? ~Jake

 

I'm okay with that. -Luggage

 

Sounds like we're set, then. Removing "disputed" tag. ~Kenneth Pike

 

Wow I never even saw this page when the controversy was going on. I realize this is like a month after its over but for the record I thought I'd put my OOC comments on ElamenSTAR here. I added the page for ElamenSTAR when I read the Wizbits page and it said it was based off an anime. Well, the Anime must have a name, right? What about its Seiyuu, its episode guide? This would be a chance to make a Hitoshi Doi page for a show that no one else knew about! =) (see his page to see what I mean) I figured Jason Langomedes would be a person like Carl Macek of Robotech fame, who took the show and totally turned it on his head for the American audience, making him beloved by some and reviled by others. I never meant it to undermine stuff on other areas of the Wiki. After Shadowtext started adding stuff about name changes and fansub tapes I just ran with it. Most of it is parodies of other anime cliches and series, and I've tried to throw in veiled references to other shows wherever I can. I doubt anyone's figured out where Tomono Shuuan came from but I'm sure some enterprising Japanese speaker will figure it out eventually. I'm glad everything seems to have turned out without me ever having to post on this page, but for what it's worth, there you go. -ErMaC

 

I never really knew anything about Alan Moore going into this so James Langomedes just stood on his own. Most things here even if they begin as parody take on a life of their own that goes in a different direction that makes it unique. -tim

 

Having provided the "Phila" update, I will confess something I've always found curious about the names of the characters. Obviously, Lander and Wendel are consistently named thoughout all the versions of the Underdogs story (barring the "Skip" debacle), but I've always wondered why Zura/Zula and Phila are named the way they are. I was especially surprised to see the Air Elemenstor/Dancer to be named "Fantasmaphila" in Book 4, and the Water Elemenstor/Tuba Player named "Myrtle"! I mean, obviously "Phila" is in both エラメン☆ and Book 4, but why give the Water Elementstor the name? And who invented "Zula"? The only guess I have is that, since both Lander's and Wendel's names end in the same character (ル), Shuuan-sensei wanted the names of the female characters to alliterate similarly, and so came up with Zura. But still... why give the Air Elemenstor that name? Does anyone else have a little more information? - SpaceDrake (adice@gmu.edu)
I believe it came down to an issue of confusion - remember that Phila's familiar is named マーテル (Myrtle), and having the character also named Myrtle would be confusing. As for why the names were mixed around, ずらす means to shift or to slide around, which is probably a reference to her dancing nature. So, in order to re-use names, the Tuba Player was called フィーラ, her land squid called マーテレ, and the dancer ズラ. I will double check my Newtype film book but I'm 95% certain this was Shuuan-sensei's plan. Hope that clears things up -ErMaC
You should put that info on the Answers finally cleared up here page, get all the characters nice and straightened out for good! -toshi.m
Does anyone have the ElamenSTAR fansubs? I know there are Digisubs of the movies and the last season or two by Elemenstation-Anime-Subs but I was wondering if anyone had some of the early stuff fansubbed? I have episodes 2-6 and 13 on dodgy 3rd generation VHS but would love to finish my collection - Stephen
Did some re-org to the page, moved a couple things around and tried to reword a few things to sound more in line with the rest of the Wiki. Also, I'm sorry about removing a section on the US ending, to whoever wrote it, but recall that the ending of the Japanese show and the US show occur at different points in the timeline - the US show ends witht he defeat of MooMaa, as US audiences never got to see past season 2. Is there some information which I'm missing? I'm not that familiar with the US release, perhaps they re-added the Char fight to the end of the final battle against MooMaa. If so, please make that clear and add it to the episode summary. -ErMaC

 

Checked the database on MGC and it looks like we've got it backwards! The ElamenSTAR is canon! ~Jake
That's what I thought... I wonder why it got mixed up? Anyhow I fixed it now. ~ toshi.m
Well the funny thing is that Realmworlds doesn't consider it canonical, while it looks like MGC does for purposes of the expanded ElotH
Even MGC is not consistent on this because MGC has taken things directly from ElamenSTAR and used them as story elements. -tim

 

Does anyone have any scans of the eRamen☆-brand pre-promotional ramen noodles? If I recall correctly, there was a flavor for each main character, but Doodle was included! I feel this has ramificannonisations, so can anyone else back this up? thnx jimmyb
Actually.. you're right.. he did look very very similar to doodle. This was a character named Johi (See: Johi Joins the Fray (Card)), but they didn't end up using the character design and the card was retired in the next printing. Either Doodle was based on the same card or the character designs were reused, not really sure which, but it did lead to the release of the Doodle Joins the Fray (Card) (hasn't this one been recalled now?) -Tim
I just added eRamenSTAR, but I've got no more information on Johi than what I read here. Help anyone? ~samhas
For the sake of removing it from the Missing Backto page, I am going to link to the OOC ElamenSTAR discussion page here. That will be all :) -Niall

 

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